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Is this true?


 
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IPGuy
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 3:47 pm    Post subject: Is this true? Reply with quote

Hey Guys,

I live in Florida and as I mentioned in another post I would like to start my own business installing network cameras strictly using POE so I don't have to do any power wiring.

Do I need to apply to be a:
ES Certified Specialty Contractor (Limited Energy System Specialty)??

Do you have to be a licensed contractor to install this type of equipment? If so on the application it says you need previous experience, meeting one of these criterias:

Must be licensed as an electrical professional engineer for three (3) years within the last 12 years; or
�� Must have three (3) years of management experience in the trade within the last six (6) years immediately preceding the filing of the application; or
�� Must have four (4) years of experience as a foreman, supervisor or contractor in the trade within the last eight (Cool years immediately preceding the filing of the application; or
�� Must have six (6) years of comprehensive training, technical education or broad experience associated with an electrical or an alarm system installation within the last 12 years immediately preceding the filing of the application; or
�� Must have at least six (6) years of technical experience in electrical work with the Armed Forces or a governmental entity within the last 12 years immediately preceding the filing of the application; or
�� Must have a combination of these qualifications totaling six (6) years of experience.

So if I don't meet this I can't start my own business installing these cameras? Can anyone help me figure this out? ICU maybe? You're awesome!!!?? Smile

Thanks to anyone that can offer assistance/advice.
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Dwayne
Enthusiast


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi there IP Guy,

I have gone through some readings, after I am the german equivalent to your florida's ES, and I was corious what rules and regulations you have there.

I have read the following faq:

http://www.myflorida.com/dbpr/pro/elboard/documents/elecfaqs.pdf

at point 24 it says:

Quote:
24. Do I need a license to perform telecommunication and/or fiber optic work?
Yes. If you are not licensed as an electrical or alarm contractor, you must have a limited energy
(low voltage) specialty license unless you are licensed under Chapter 364, F.S., as a public service/utility company.


after POE works with 44V-54V it would be considered as "low voltage" and you are not going to work on 3phase energy nets this fits to your needs.

From what I have read you need to hold a "Limited Energy Systems Speciality" license which covers everything up to 77 Volts (Florida Administrative Code--Rule 61G6-7)
Quote:

61G6-7.001: (Effective: 09/16/2007)

(4) Limited Energy Systems Specialty. The scope of certification of a limited energy systems specialty contractor includes the installation, repair, fabrication, erection, alteration, addition to, or design of electrical wiring, fixtures, appliances, thermostats, apparatus, raceways, conduit, and fiber optics (transmission of light over stranded glass) or any part thereof not to exceed 77 volts, when those items are for the purpose of transmitting data, proprietary video (satellite systems which are not part of a community antenna television, cable television, or radio distribution system), radio frequency, central vacuum, or electric locks, data distribution networks, home theater systems, surround sound systems, public address systems or telephone systems.


Source: https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=61G6-7.001
File: https://www.flrules.org/gateway/notice_Files.asp?ID=4593549

I hope this gives you a point where to start to get your licence.

See Ya

Wolfgang
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Dwayne
Enthusiast


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some additonal readings:

Source: http://www.contractors-license.org/fl/Florida.html#fl1

Quote:
To do electrical work statewide in Florida you need to be certified by the Electrical Contractors Licensing Board
[...]
The Board issues these types of certificates:
[...]
Specialty
[...]
4. limited energy
[...]
To qualify for the exam the Board requires for a certificate, you need to fulfill one of the following requirements:

* at least three years of management experience in the trade within the last six years (half can be an approved education)
* at least four years of experience as a foreman , supervisor, or contractor in the trade within the past eight years
* at least six years of comprehensive training, technical education, or broad experience with electrical or alarm system installation or service within the past twelve years
* three years as a licensed engineer
[...]

The exam is open book on three subjects -- general business, technical knowledge, and safety. Here's the information on each type of certificate and the percentage of the exam that's devoted to each subject:
Certificate Type # of Questions
[...]
Limited Energy Specialty Contractor
General theory and principles 26 - 28
Plan, schematics and diagram reading and interpretation 21 - 23
Wiring and protection 10 - 12
Wiring methods and materials 10 - 12
OSHA, safety, testing procedure, tool and equipment use 9 - 11
Americans with Disabilities Act 1 - 3
Limited energy, low voltage 16 - 18
[...]


Guess that is what you need.....
Good Luck!
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ICUSecurity
Enthusiast


Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 328

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad I work in pittsburgh...

Requirements : None

=)
_________________
For Sale
32 Aimetis Standard Channel - $90 ea
OR buy with servers (Dell) and save!!

4 Channel Video-Insight Software - $350
8 Channel Video-Insight Capture Card - 1,000
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IPGuy
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dwayne,

Thanks for all the great informatioN! I really appriciate it... but YIKES! I don't meet any of the following:

* at least three years of management experience in the trade within the last six years (half can be an approved education)
* at least four years of experience as a foreman , supervisor, or contractor in the trade within the past eight years
* at least six years of comprehensive training, technical education, or broad experience with electrical or alarm system installation or service within the past twelve years
* three years as a licensed engineer

I guess that means it's a NO GO for me. Sad
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Dwayne
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Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No Problem, 10 minutes of google.

Well it seems you are extreamly eger to get this started.

We have a similar situation here in Germany. for starting a business in any kind of electrical contraction of any kind you have to be a certificated handcrafts master of electrical engineering. The requirements are here

3 years of apprentice ship of any handcraft profession with passed final exam
3 years of experiance in a profession in any electrical engineering profession (the apprentice ship my count if it was as electrcian)

this gives you the requirement for the exam as handcrafts master. it is strongly recommended to join a 2 year lasting school for the exam, but not required (90% of those not attending the school fail the exam)

once you a re certificated you will have it for life.

with that certification you may do any electrical installation you like, however the final connection to the local power net must be made by a local licenced handcrafts master.

with the european community there are coming a lot of electricians to germany who do not meet those requirements but want to start their own business.

so thy do the installation, and then pay an external certificated electrician to do a final test, and sign that everything is ok (he takes then the full responsibility and has to pay if eg. a false installation causes a fire) so they let themself payed really really good. (done that too, its a good extra money)

on the other side, there are a few companies, who just do the planning for a customer, and then let a licenced company do the work.

And that I could imagine a solution for your business plan:

you try to find a licenced company which usually does no work in poe wiring, let them do the wiring at your customers, all you do is the final setup of the cameras and server and stuff. everything where you just plug in the devices. this should fit the requirements of the law.

there are quite a lot securitiy comanies in germany working together with licenced electrical companies who don't have the experiance with security systems, but are allowed to do the wiring.

if you are doing it, like letting the company doing the installation gain you expeeriance you might collect there the requirements for the exam as "Limited Energy Systems Speciality" - maybe you should talk to the "Electrical Contractors Licensing Board" if that is a possible solution for you.

think about it.
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Todd S
Trusted Member


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Portland, Or

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Limited Energy wiring sometimes (usually) requires licensing that varies by state. Any time you pull cable, you may need a license and/or permit.
If the cabling is already in place, no license or permit is required to install POE equipment.

Running a single wire or adding a small extension to an existing network infrastructure may technically require permitting, etc, but I have never seen this be a problem in my area. It is most critical when doing initial wiring during a large remodel and/or construction where other permits having to do the construction are in place.

There is the letter of the law and then there is just doing what makes sense, if you know what I mean.
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Dwayne
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Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

See Todd,

when it comes to laws, rules and regulations, it makes no sense to try to think of it logically. A technical problem I solve logically - but laws often have nothing to to with logic.

After Florida has (imho) very strict rules, it is better to obey to them.

Lets imagine something:

Let's say there is caused a fire after some new network wires have been added. What really caused the fire is not clear, but I am sure, there is someone saying "it has to be with the recent changes"
Any kind of wireing and the danger of fire go hand in hand - that is the reason you need to be licenced to do electrical wiring of any kind in most western countries.

Being licencensed just says you are qualified to consider all possibilities, you are aware of local rules and regulations of wiring etc.
Being licencensed does not mean you are good at your job, it just says you are qualified. That also means even if you are good at your job you might not be qualified by the law.

no logic - just rules.
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Todd S
Trusted Member


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Portland, Or

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While my original post was not intended to debate anything in particular with anyone, this one is Laughing

I was directly involved with the beginning of the process to require permits for low voltage wiring in my area. I was actively pulling wire at the time. I did not do this primarily, but as a side requirement for being a "phoneguy" for a business telephone system VAR. The person assigned to start the project and all his appointees were union members and likely paid by the union initially. The union concept in this area struggles to say the least. We are fairly progressive, independent thinkers out here in rainville. Assisted suicide, legalize pot, etc, etc. The unions, in their bid to make competition more even (due to their tremendous overhead), lobbied Oregon to start the ball rolling on making permits required for even low voltage wiring. This was not born from statistics or science or even goodwill. It was business.
They wanted me to sign up, pay them a bunch of money to tell me how to do what I had been doing for 5 years already, for 4 more years, so that I could continue doing what I was already doing without any issues. And charge me to take the test. Charge my exployer for being enrolled, and exact fines for non-compliance, fees for permits, on and on.
I refused to participate and demanded to be indentured into the program at the highest level. I even agreed to take the test (which turned out to be a JOKE). After much chest thumping and egomaniacal posturing, they agreed. I took the asinine test and blew it away. After 6 months they sent me a letter demanding I pay them to take a code update class. I went to their office and tore up my license in front of the guy in charge of the whole thing. Childish? Perhaps.
But I understand the logic of the licenses. Oh, I understand.
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Todd S
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 67
Location: Portland, Or

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bizarre anti government tirade removed Laughing
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Dwayne
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Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well,

as I said, not logic, just rules. However imho it is good that there are control instances for not letting anybody deal with electric power.

As I said above, I have the german equivalent of the florida's "Certified Specialty Contractor" licence.

In Germany, owning this licence (for life that is, you never have to do additional tests, or reenroll or whatever) burdens you with a lot of responsibilites.

Lets say you own that licenence and you walk along the street. You see somewhere a powersupply of a house, which you recognize faulty, and possible harmful for anyone. In this case, you MUST inform the energy company. But only if you hold that licence. If you don't do what ever is possible to prevent anyone from harm, and they prove you haven't done everything, and someone gets harmed you can even go to jail.

another example:

I once visited friends of mine, and the wife mentioned that she gets slightly shocked when she touches the dishwasher in the kitchen.
I meassured the voltage between the housing to ground, and it was over 50V.

The law says, that I have to cut the power to that house. I must do that. otherwise if the shock is deadly I go in prison for sure. Only because I hold the licence.

I do not have to do repairs, but I must avoid any harm from electrical installation, no matter if I am responsible for it or not, that means the least I have to do is to remove the main fuses of the house and inform the local energy supply company (only they my put them back after checking the wiring that everything is ok) - oh "normal" people, without holding a licence may not remove the main fuses.

that's the situation in germany
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IPGuy
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOu have good ideas Dwayne,

I wonder if I am allowed to do the work and have a contractor sign off that it's been done right? Did you read anything on this? I'll have to look into it. Thanks
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Dwayne
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Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have no idea if that is legal in florida, in germany it is.
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IPGuy
Regular Member


Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Update..Dawayne Reply with quote

Hey Dawayne,

I e-mailed the board about weather or not I need a license and this is there response:

"A Limited Energy Systems Specialty license includes the installation, repair,
fabrication, erection, alteration, addition to, or design of electrical wiring,
fixtures, appliance, thermostats, apparatus, raceways, conduit, and fiber optics
(transmission of light over stranded glass) or any part thereof not to exceed 77
volts, when these items are for the purpose of transmitting data, proprietary video
(satellite systems which are not part of a community antenna television or radio
distribution system), central vacuum, or electric locks. Shall not include work
performed on public utilities exempt- finished products, materials, or articles of
merchandise that do not become a permanent fixed part of the structure. Rule
61G6-7.001, Florida Administrative Code."

So, really they didn't say anything about network cable so I might not need one, I asked for clarification...
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Dwayne
Enthusiast


Joined: 10 Sep 2007
Posts: 335

PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"A Limited Energy Systems Specialty license includes the installation, [...] or design of electrical wiring,
[...] or any part thereof not to exceed 77
volts, when these items are for the purpose of transmitting data, [...] which are not part of a community antenna television or radio
distribution system), central vacuum, or electric locks. Shall not include work
performed on public utilities exempt- finished products, materials, or articles of
merchandise that do not become a permanent fixed part of the structure. Rule
61G6-7.001, Florida Administrative Code."


If you take wire, cut it, nail it to the wall and attach it to network plugs this fits. to my opinion you need a licence. if you take finnished wiring and just plug it in the hub and the camera you don't need one.
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