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Router Problem w/streaming IP cameras

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JohnnyC
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:06 pm    Post subject: Router Problem w/streaming IP cameras Reply with quote

I got a strange problem I can't seem to accurately pin-point that maybe someone here can help.

I run 8 (sometimes 9) cameras on my home network. Cameras range from low end Panasonics, upper range Panasonics and the AXIS Q1755 HDTV IP network camera.

Prior to my purchase of the AXIS Q1755 camera I've noticed a problem by which none of my cameras seemed to stream with fluid-like motion which I posted about several months ago. One response was "get better cameras" which prompted my to buy the AXIS Q1755 camera which is spec'd to run at 25 to 30 fps in HD (720p and 1080i). BTW - It's a great camera - Love it..

After I configured the AXIS camera on my LAN, I was surprised to see it did not stream on my LAN as it should. The picture was choppy just like my other cameras.

I removed the AXIS HDTV camera from my home LAN router and hooked it into a cheap standalone D-Link router as well as one PC for monitoring- Nothing else was on this small test network. The camera streamed exceptional well as it was rated to do. I want to mention I did not reboot the camera, I just simply unplugged the cat5e cable from my home LAN router and plugged it into my standalone test LAN router.

My next step - I removed all the cameras from my home LAN by unplugging the cat5e cables from my home LAN router and plugged in my AXIS Q1755 into my home LAN router. Only one PC and one camera is attached to my home LAN router. The AXIS Q1755 camera as seen on my pC was choppy (~15 fps or less). As before I did not reboot the AXIS Q1755 when switching LANs.

I concluded that my problem is NOT the AXIS camera, but my router. WHY???

My router on my home LAN is a D-link DIR-655 with updated firmware. This is the router designed for gamers and cost over $100.00 when I bought it last year.

My test router which provided excellent results is a D-Link DIR-625 with outdated firmware and I bought it at a garage sale for $5.00 and looks like it got drop-kicked several times.

Some may suggest to simply use the $5.00 garage sale router, but I hoped to use the advanced features of the DIR-655.

Can anyone tell me what the problem may be? Or suggest a "real" commercial router to buy that will deleiver the perfomance I need? I'll spend the bucks if I can get the performance I am seeking.

Thanks,
John
New Jersey
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bobby1471
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Joined: 18 Aug 2008
Posts: 109
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You said your looking for certain features on your router. Exactly what all are you looking to be in your new router? Alos does yoour router limit bandwidth in some way? Could be worth looking into QoS etc to see if there is some limit/throttle on speed.
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JohnnyC
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bobby1471 wrote:
You said your looking for certain features on your router. Exactly what all are you looking to be in your new router? Alos does yoour router limit bandwidth in some way? Could be worth looking into QoS etc to see if there is some limit/throttle on speed.

Bobby, glad you asked. I am looking for a gigabit router, as many ports as possible (more than 5 would be nice) and PoE at each port (high wattage PoE would be nice). It should support virtual servers and MAC filtering. I am getting away from wirless since my wireless cameras severly degrade in performance when place more than 100 feet away. I am NOT a gamer so I don't need anything specific for games. My cameras are my only games.

You asked about QoS. Well, I bought the DIR-655 specifically for QoS to set priority for my more important cameras streaming over the internet so I can monitor them while at work 40 miles away and get the best performnce possible while other things are running on the home network.

While debugging my problem, I configured QoS specifically for the Q1755's IP:port and enabled then disabled QoS and got the same results regardless while viewing on my home LAN. Beside, I believe QoS is for setting priority between LAN and WAN. My problem is local viewing on the same LAN and while viewing on the internet. Another observation is when viewing the images from the Q1755's SD card, playback is very fluid and natural with no signs of any camera problem while the PC on the LAN was showing choppy images. So, something is degrading/limiting bandwidth on the LAN in the stupid router. I hope this makes sense as it is late right now.

If you can recommend a good no b.s. commercial router that can meet my expectations, I am all ears.

Thanks!
John
New Jersey
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consaka
Member


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Wa

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Router Problem w/streaming IP cameras Reply with quote

JohnnyC wrote:
I got a strange problem I can't seem to accurately pin-point that maybe someone here can help.

I removed the <a href="http://www.networkcamerareviews.com/networkcameras/axis/index.html" style="color: #333333; text-decoration: none;">AXIS</a> HDTV camera from my home LAN router and hooked it into a cheap standalone D-Link router as well as one PC for monitoring- Nothing else was on this small test network. The camera streamed exceptional well as it was rated to do. I want to mention I did not reboot the camera, I just simply unplugged the cat5e cable from my home LAN router and plugged it into my standalone test LAN router.

My next step - I removed all the cameras from my home LAN by unplugging the cat5e cables from my home LAN router and plugged in my <a href="http://www.networkcamerareviews.com/networkcameras/axis/index.html" style="color: #333333; text-decoration: none;">AXIS</a> Q1755 into my home LAN router. Only one PC and one camera is attached to my home LAN router.
Thanks,
John
New Jersey


Question. Did you use the same PC for both tests?
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fatjohnny
Enthusiast


Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: Router Problem w/streaming IP cameras Reply with quote

consaka wrote:
JohnnyC wrote:
I got a strange problem I can't seem to accurately pin-point that maybe someone here can help.

I removed the <a href="http://www.networkcamerareviews.com/networkcameras/axis/index.html" style="color: #333333; text-decoration: none;">AXIS</a> HDTV camera from my home LAN router and hooked it into a cheap standalone D-Link router as well as one PC for monitoring- Nothing else was on this small test network. The camera streamed exceptional well as it was rated to do. I want to mention I did not reboot the camera, I just simply unplugged the cat5e cable from my home LAN router and plugged it into my standalone test LAN router.

My next step - I removed all the cameras from my home LAN by unplugging the cat5e cables from my home LAN router and plugged in my <a href="http://www.networkcamerareviews.com/networkcameras/axis/index.html" style="color: #333333; text-decoration: none;">AXIS</a> Q1755 into my home LAN router. Only one PC and one camera is attached to my home LAN router.
Thanks,
John
New Jersey


Question. Did you use the same PC for both tests?

Yes... Since the time of posting I found my problem. I have collision issues on my network when I load it with the heavy artilliary (sp?).

John
New Jersey
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consaka
Member


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Wa

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

???? Do you also have a lot of hubs on your system?
you should not be having those kinds of issues even with your "heavy" use.
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fatjohnny
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got two hubs that lead to my router. The hub detecting collisions is a small office grade Nortel Networks hub. It has 8 ports of which are all utilized with cameras. Two of the cameras are mega pixel cameras. On my lan, I run a PC with monitoring software for all cameras, so there is a constant data flow from all cameras, through both hubs, into the router and picked up by my PC. The cameras configured to run at max fps and MJPEG (my recording software does not support H.264).

How do I know I got collison problems? On the Nortel hub, there is an amber light and it's marked "collision". When the collision light sporadically lights up, the data flow to my PC seems to stop.

Basically, I believe my network is saturated. Once I added the mega pixel cameras, it can bring the network to it's knees.

BTW - The Nortel hub is only a T100 base hub. Time to upgrade, right?

John
New jersey
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consaka
Member


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Wa

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol yeah id say its time for some gigabit switches. Hubs are crap anyway, in my opinion. Any sort of load and they start messing with the bandwidth till they are 90% of the problem then about that time your network is like a bad dial-up modem.
They work fine for very small networks with very little bandwidth needs and thats about it.
They must be pretty old as I haven't seen one of those in use for a very long time.
You will love your network again once you go with high bandwidth switches..Smile
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fatjohnny
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

consaka wrote:
lol yeah id say its time for some gigabit switches. Hubs are crap anyway, in my opinion. Any sort of load and they start messing with the bandwidth till they are 90% of the problem then about that time your network is like a bad dial-up modem.
They work fine for very small networks with very little bandwidth needs and thats about it.
They must be pretty old as I haven't seen one of those in use for a very long time.
You will love your network again once you go with high bandwidth switches..Smile

Yup, you are right! That is exactly what I experienced. By the way, I accidently found the problem the other day when I was in the basement where the hub is located and seen the collision light sporadically going on and off. The network utilization lights were pegged. All my other gear is on the third floor where I spend most of my time which is the reason why I had problems finding the root cause, and cameras are placed outside. Time for a nice gigbit switch...

My Lesson Learned -> When upgrading from vga cameras to megapixel cameras, make sure the network can handle it. My recent jump to several megapixel cameras put me over the edge and I plan to add more. Likewise, plan for appropriate disk space capacity too. I had to upgrade from 500 gb to 3 tb total storage after adding 3 megal pixels cameras. I hope to reduce my storage needs once I can get good software that will record h.264.

John
New Jersey
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consaka
Member


Joined: 31 Oct 2009
Posts: 14
Location: Wa

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Id like to know how that all works once you get those gigabit switches installed.
I like the camera software ok that comes with the foscams. What id like now is a way to control the size of the folder that I have the video stored in.
Id like to keep the folder size under 300 gigs for my current cameras. They seem to occasionally think that the process of the sun coming up is movement or perhaps floating dust specks or something. Regardless even the ones by the house that monitor car traffic and visitors needs to be able to kill the old videos to make room for new ones.
Anyone know how to do that?
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fatjohnny
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 249

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PROBLEM RESOLVED!

I bought an 8 port 1 gig switch made by Netgear on my way home from work this evening and swapped out my old 8 port HUB. My ENTIRE system woke up! Cameras are running faster than ever up to the frames per second set in their configuration for each camera. At my monitoring PC I checked network utilization and on my 1 gig lan I am using 110mb on average. So, my old 100mb hub was clearly choking and puked each time a collision happened which seriously impacted performance on my network. BTW - The collision light blinked about 3 times faster than a car blinker. This all started and got worse with each mega pixel camera added to my lan.

John
New Jersey
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SteveM
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: My switch is not Gig - frames seem to be out of order Reply with quote

My switch is less than a year old and was not cheap, but it is not GIG.
http://www.dlink.com/me/sr/support/product/des-1210-28p-b1-smart-poe-28-port-fast-ethernet-switch

Frames seem to come out of order, a car might jump backwards and forwards for example. From what I know UDP doesn't care about order, I'd assume cameras might use UDP. Everything looks great, until there is motion, which makes sense, if nothing is not moving you wouldn't notice if the packets are out of order.

My cabling is also Cat5e.

Anyone done the math on the bandwith required for newer 3MP cameras, doing 15FPS? WOuld that be 45Megabits/second? 100MB bandwidth means only 2 cameras? Is Cat 6 the only way to go in the future?

I could post my choppy footage, is there a good program to edit this 5 minute section to just show a 15 second choppy section.

Merci!

I bought this 100MB switch based on a retired networking buddy who though there was no need for Gigabit switch with cameras.
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JohnnyC
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Posts: 670

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! I see that I wrote the opening post almost 4 years ago. I never thought anyone would respond now.

Steve, my system and network changed greatly over the past 4 years. I mentioned later in the thread of responses that my problem was "I have collision issues ". I was originally running a old hub, not a switch. As I added cameras and especially HD cameras, performance nose dived. When I looked closely at my hub, there was a small light which was labeled "collision" and it was lit up big-time. I think the hub was rated as 100mb. Once I replaced the hub with a modern 1 gigabit switch, there was an immediate improvement. Also, after upgrading to better cameras such as Axis, my system and network ran very well.

The problem you are experiencing seems to be different than what I experienced. I never seen video jump backwards. My video was only choppy.

John
New Jersey
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SteveM
Regular Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 11:40 pm    Post subject: Yep, Hubs are history, and rightfully so Reply with quote

I'm having fun taking the Cisco Networking Academy Networking 1 class at the moment. So I did learn the switches eliminate a lot of collisions vs Hubs. I do have a TRendnet Gig unmanaged PoE+ tpe-TG44G switch, which I should swap in to see if this improves things. UDP protocol does not worry about packets out of order, but maybe I'll find out UDP is not used. I am going to do more wiring soon, so my immediate panic is should I abandon the cat5e I have in stock and just do cat 6 from this moment on. A decent reel of cat6 will prob be at least $200 once I figure out how has the good quality stuff. I think it is a network issue, at first I though my synology ds713+ nas with NVR software was overloaded, but I got a additional ds213+ to take on one camera and choppyness has been noticed on both. I guess the camers could be doing this, maybe not buffering correctly. Four Trendnet TV-IP322P cameras.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your switch has 2 gigabit uplink ports to connect tor your NAS, so doesn't matter if each camera were 45Mbps but that's not what a 3MP camera typically is. I run mine at 5Mbps but default is actually 4Mbps and that's with H.264 compression of most modern day cameras. If you were to go MPEG or MJPEG, bandwidth could be 3-4X that, so say 15-20Mbps, even then, you should not have a problem of course unless maybe if you actually filled that 28 ports switch, at which point you may want to setup VLANs and split it up to different NIC's on your NVR PC. What cameras do you have? How many

As for Cat6 vs. Cat5e, not sure you'll ever see any difference. First, most cameras are still 100Mbps and even if they wen 1,000Mbps, Cat5e is more than adequate. We run Cat6 on very long runs, just ran one that is 800' and put one in a few months ago at 1,600' and we use an extender over Cat6.

If you were like Johnny with 75W midspans for his speed dome, you may want to get Cat6 for that to have lower power loss over distance.

As for Synology Surveillance Station. I bought the licenses and used it for a while, but was not happy with it. They recently had a software upgrade to record 3MP but it's still sluggish, only so much you can do with Java and Atom processors. I switched to Milestone, about the same price per camera and it's so much better.
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