Mobotix Q24M-SEC help!

[Uncle Ben]

Hi, all. I'm new here, and my technical knowledge is mediorcre at best, so please bear with me.

I want to install a security camera primarily for night recording. We've had a recent wave of vandalism, with hooligans running down the street at night, drunk, who don't hesitate to kick a solar lamp to smithereens. So I want them on record. The Q24 would be installed in the soffit, and would take in a 270 degree view of the front entrance and the entire front yard - if you can just imagive a U-shape property, with the entrance in the middle; a bedroom on the left; and double-car garage to the right. The front yard is roughly 60' x 30', the Q24 would be sitting at a height of 11' or so.

Lighting conditions - dim at best. There's a street lamp directly across the street from us, which cast enough light to cause a faint shadow when walking towards the house; and then I have the usual porch lights at the entrance and over the garage doors.

Question 1: Can the Q24M-SEC give me a reasonable picture without Infrared lights? And if so, do I need to compromise and get the Night version, thus foregoing the 3 megapixel and colour? Or would the Day version also give me a reasonable picture under these lighting conditions.

Question 2: Can the Q24 be flush-mounted in the soffit, in the roof overhang?

Question 3: Which is the better lens option for a residence, the 11mm or the 22? I would like to be able to pick up as much of the street as possible, not just the front yard, but as much of the street directly across and on each side.

Question 4: This camera comes with a 4-gig card - what good is that? How much recording can you get on a 4-gig card?

Question 5: Can a cheap USB-drive be connected directly to the camera? What's is this NAS jazz that they're talking about in the Q24 manual? Do I need that?

Question 6: Do I need to buy the POE switch or is that included?

Question 7: Since this is an outdoor installation, do I need Cat5 cable or Cat7?

Question 8: I can afford the Q24, but it will hurt a little. Is there a cheaper alternative that would give me the same or better performance?

TIA for all your help!

[buellwinkle]

Question 1: Can the Q24M-SEC give me a reasonable picture without Infrared lights? And if so, do I need to compromise and get the Night version, thus foregoing the 3 megapixel and colour? Or would the Day version also give me a reasonable picture under these lighting conditions.

For me, the day sensor/lens drops off at dusk, can probably go another 1/2 hour and then my M12 switches to the night sensor/lens. Not even sure the day lens will work well with IR as it probably doesn't have an IR CUT filter. You can use regular flood lights on motion detectors if you want. Or maybe get the D12-SEC-DNIGHT Dual Dome, then you get one day and one nigh lens.

Question 2: Can the Q24 be flush-mounted in the soffit, in the roof overhang?
It appears to be near flush. Download the install manual of their website.

Question 3: Which is the better lens option for a residence, the 11mm or the 22? I would like to be able to pick up as much of the street as possible, not just the front yard, but as much of the street directly across and on each side.

This camera is designed to look down, so not sure if you would get a wide enough image with the 22mm. I normally tell people to take pic with their regular digital camers, but don't think anything I've seen does 11mm, that's a very wide fish eye lens.

Question 4: This camera comes with a 4-gig card - what good is that? How much recording can you get on a 4-gig card?
Didn't know any of their cameras come with a card. It takes those tiny micro SD cards used in phones up to 32GB. That's a lot. I can probably have mine go month or two at least on that size card. It's going to compress it, it's only going to record when there's motion, so it's never as bad as you think.

Question 5: Can a cheap USB-drive be connected directly to the camera? What's is this NAS jazz that they're talking about in the Q24 manual? Do I need that?

If you find a good USB drive, you can plug it into the NAS for backups. The least expensive NAS device I've seen that works is a 1TB WD World Edition, runs about $169 and that's what I use with every 2 cameras . Mobotix support said not to put more han 3 cameras per cheap NAS.

Question 6: Do I need to buy the POE switch or is that included?

You do not need to buy a PoE switch per se, I would recomend it, it makes the camera power up But if you have a free port on your router, you can just plug the camera into that using a single camera Mobotix PoE injector but it will cost you more than an 8 port switch with PoE. I use the Trendnet, works well and costs about $70. I get mine from buy.com but others sell it.

Question 7: Since this is an outdoor installation, do I need Cat5 cable or Cat7?

I use Cat5e that's burial grade, black cable. It's waterproof and shielded from nearby interferance. If its going to get wet, use this, if you can ensure it's dryness you can get cheaper Cat5.

Question 8: I can afford the Q24, but it will hurt a little. Is there a cheaper alternative that would give me the same or better performance?

Q24-SEC is actually pretty cheap for what it does. What are you paying, about $800-900? The camera companies that make at least a 3MP dome style camera are Arecont and IQinVision. Stardot & Axis make 3MP megapixel box cameras, not domes. Their outdoor domes aren't really much less expensive. Then consider that other than Mobotix or IQinVision, it won't likely have an SD card slot or NVR software built in. For example, Arecont will be cheaper, but then you need a dedicated PC and software that's on 24/7 (no sleep mode), it has zero intelligence built into the camera.

[Uncle Ben]

@buellwinkle: Thanks for the prompt reply! I thought of the D12; the problem here though is that both lens would have to point in the same direction, hence I would lose sight of either the front yard or the front entrance at night.

When your M12 switches to the night sensor, how good is the B&W image and under what lighting conditions?

I did look at the manual for the Q24 and it says that the ceiling mount should not be used for outdoor installations; and yet, a Mobotix partner tells me that there's no problem using the ceiling mount for a roof overhang install. So I was wondering if anyone here had this camera installed in the soffit.

As for the lens, I think you just gave me the confirmation I was looking for - so 11mm it is.

Thanks a million! Much appreciated.

[buellwinkle]

they are expensive

[40th Floor]

$1500 for each? Yikes!
_________________
40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
CastleKeeper - IP camera surveillance/recorder
http://castlekeeper.40th.com/ck2plus_demo.zip

[buellwinkle]

[Uncle Ben]

@buellwinkle: Thanks, nice pics. I can see that the Mobotix does very very well at night, but only if the scene is very very well lit!

I also found this site which offers a few more examples:

http://www.cnieurope.nl/Hoofdzaken/demo.html

The last example on that page is a night Q24M - and at night, with minimal lighting, it looks like the camera can still pick up quite a bit of detail. So there's no doubt that with the addition of one or two flood lights on MD would work fine. IR lighting would be great, but would add to the cost considerably. And for a retired old fart like me, every dime counts!

Thank you for your help, nephew dearest! Aunt Bea says Hello!

[40th Floor]

This guy doesn't sound too happy with his

http://www.cctvforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=20966&p=124854#p124854

Gotta wonder what the sales guy told him. He didn't mention the frame size (in bytes) but I can only presume these are HUGE, even for mobitix proprietary jpeg format.

buell: The software doesn't grow on trees so there is a cost. Each mobi camera you buy, you buy its software again, software that only works for mobi cams. And at $1500 a camera, give or take, it adds up pretty fast. Even two puts you at $3000, and from the looks of it, barely worth a 10th of that.
_________________
40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
CastleKeeper - IP camera surveillance/recorder
http://castlekeeper.40th.com/ck2plus_demo.zip

[buellwinkle]

These cameras are highly programmable, and that person's misunderstanding of how to set the camera up is not the fault of the camera. Like a DSLR, you can setup spot metering areas, If you meter on the entrire image which is a default, and you have a bright spot like he has, yes, it will come out exposed wrong. I think the biggest problem people have with cameras is that they don't have the basic photography concepts of light and metering. I would say that the Mobotix camera has as many exposure/metering tweaks as a DSLR. The only way to prove it to you, is come to So Cal, take a look at the image on the camera, at the same time take a look at the scene and you will be amazed.

But since you think they are overpriced, using your software, the one that doesn't grow on trees, show me how for 1/10th of that I can get 2 outdoor cameras, wall mounts, 4-6 MP each with either two 3MP lenses or 1 day, 1 night lens, not made in China, Then add cost of your software, and a PC to run it on. So you understand, you have a $300 budget for everything, 1/10th. Mind you that Axis charges $300 for just an enclosure.

I went through this exercise over and over again. Even bought the least expensive 3MP camera that I could find at the time (barring anything made in China), the Arecont, even got it with an IR CUT filter which is half the price of the Mobotix M12, but by the time you add a lens, their per camera charge for their software, get their external enclosure, the price is not that much less expensive, maybe a 1/10th the price difference, not 1/10th the price. Then I have no way to network the cameras back to a PC running your software with enough bandwidth to run 20 cameras on a 900Mhz wireless backhaul. I need 900Mhz because of the terrain and it's expensive and slow, 3MB/sec if I'm lucky, not for each camera, for the entire network.

BTW, if you want the Arecont, it's an AV3100DN, 3MP camera, $350 and it's yours, used it for a few hours in my house for a comparison test with Mobotix. I also have an Arecont 4-10mm lens if you are interested.