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Infrared Illuminator

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Morro Bay Weather
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Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Infrared Illuminator Reply with quote

Anyone know of one not too expensive that would work in conjunction with an M1011? I find it interesting my cheap Chinese cam has about a dozed IR lights around the lens and a night vision feature and it worked ok, nothing special but worked. Believe the Cheap can has a lower lux too. .5

The M1011 seems to get very grainy fairly early before actual sunset. Now this is during overcast and high fog so sunny evenings may be Ok with enough light to get me to sunset.Not sure there is a solution and if not it's not a huge issue. Still learnin' Wink
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None would work is the short answer. The M10 has a permanent IR cut filter, it filters out all IR light, allowing grass to look green Smile

So onto the next level in camera (sorry, you have to buy a camera at each price point. part of the learning process). If you want both, a camera that works well during the day and at night, you need a day/night camera, also called the automatic IR Cut Filter feature. This is an IR filter on a solenoid. During the day, it swings in place, at night it swings out of the way to allow IR light. Don't ask me why, but adding this little feature seems to make the camera double in price.

So in practical examples, your M10 is a day only camera, the other one you had was a night only camera. Both work day and night, but by now you understand the shortfalls of using a day camera at night and a night camera during the day.

So say you got a day/night camera and you want IR lighting, how far would you want to light to be effective and how wide (in degrees) do you want to light. This is how IR lighting is sold. For example, to cover 100' out is going to require a much, much more expensive light than one that covers 25' out. One that covers 100' out and covers 90 degrees is going to be much, much more expensive than one that covers 45 degrees at the same distance.

For example, we use an Extreme light that uses a quartz bulb (cheaper than LED for same amount of light), advertised at 100' and I believe it's a narrow beam, like 45 degrees, cost $500 (cost, not retail). In the same place we have a smaller area, use a cheap LED IR illuminator good for about 25', got it at Fry's for $50ish. To cover that field in your view, a simple $2,000 IR led array from Raytec would do it Sad Also, most require that you get a power supply and run power from the power supply to illuminator. Raytech (also rebranded as Axis) makes some that are PoE powered, helps if you already have PoE at the camera location, but these sort of cost more.

At home, I use an outdoor day/night camera with built in illuminators good for about 30-40' with a decent spread and it costs about $500 (ACTi acm-1231 or tcm-1231). The indoor version or their indoor dome with similar specs like the acm-3511 is slightly cheaper, maybe $450. If you shined it out at your Morro Bay cam view, it would not help at all unless someone/something came within 30-40'.
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Morro Bay Weather
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Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it.... thanks.... the night thing isn't a huge issue anyway for now.
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CjMcD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 260
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive been testing this Toshiba IK-WR12a. 2 MP D/N IR Dome supports PoE, SD Card, 2 way audio. Retails @ 409$.

Ill share a picture of the cam.


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Morro Bay Weather
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Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great pics and info!! Thanks CJ for sharing!!

Funny thing on the IR issue and the M1011. I can't find it know, but wanted to showbuellwinkle a link I saw where Axis actually linked to a rather inexpensive IR Illuminator for use with the M1011 even though it won't or shouldn't work. I'll have to do some searching and find that link since the cam supposed cancels out the IR or rather doesn't/won't recognize it. That link led me to my original question.
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Morro Bay Weather
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Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of the links I saw and another that Axis themselves referred to. I'll find it . Shouldn't be listed and Axis should not be referring links for such if IR does not work with the 1011....

http://www.franz-video.de/download/catalogfix2009.pdf
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CjMcD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 260
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont man, that stuff looks kinda iffy. Any axis M10 series right now wont do any good with a IR illuminator. I believe Axis is coming out with a PoE IR ring for the P3343 P3346, but those cameras work well with IR illuminators.



CJ
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Morro Bay Weather
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Joined: 11 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it was kinda weird and even the link Axis provided. I wouldn't spend the money for it anyway for a 1011. I'd upgrade the cam Wink
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It says they provide a "special optic", maybe something that cancels out the IR cut filter, of course if you did that, you would have pink grass and brown trees again, haha. I do like the different housings they have for it, and gizmo to convert it into a PoE camera.

The M1031-W, next step up from your camera has an LED but it's pure white light, very bright and blinding, not IR by any means.

If it's for home security outdoors, the cheapest thing is to get a $20 motion detect outdoor security light with a pair of 100W floods and you would be set.

That Toshiba looks good, but I quick search shows that model number costs a lot more, like $600. Is it $409 wholesale? I see it has built in IR lighting, not bad for $409. Specs say it has a removable IR cut filter, does it mean that it's not automatic like a day/night camera?
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CjMcD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 260
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buellwinkle wrote:
Is it $409 wholesale? I see it has built in IR lighting, not bad for $409. Specs say it has a removable IR cut filter, does it mean that it's not automatic like a day/night camera?


Not sure about the price 100% Buell I just googled it 1 day and seen the prices ranged I thought that was lowest I had seen. Toshiba just gave me the camera I didnt pay. I think what the specs me is the Day Night modes are configurable through the gui. You can make IR on at night with no B/W Or no IR but B/W all sorts of different thing you can configure from the gui on D/N

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40th Floor
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Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 221
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These Toshes are Vivos. This is an FD7somethingorother. I don't see it in Vivo's current product list since Vivo pulled some of the old non-h264 (i.e., pre-8000 line) cameras, but I know it was one they used to sell (1600x1200).

http://www.vivotek.com/products/network_cameras.php

It's a FD7160 if you can find that.

P.S. You MUST include actual FPS with any night shot, or day shot, but especially any night shot. This is not the FPS setting on some webpage, but the actually pulled frame rate. Or at least show some sort of movement in the frame. Jumping jacks, anyone?
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to know. Comes with built IR leds so I assume it's closer to the FD8161 which appears to sell for less money than the Toshiba. Also the Vivotek does appear to have more features including PIR motion detect. Still, pretty decent image quality for a Vivotek. Night vision seem average, I get about the same outdoors with an ACTi if there's street lights, even at 1/30th second max shutter speed.
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CjMcD
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Joined: 29 Mar 2011
Posts: 260
Location: Long Island, New York

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah after checking that link for vivo. looks like this Toshe is an exact of the vivo FD-8361 except the vivo can stream in H.264. I am seeing that having that Toshiba streaming to my server using a 250 GB HDD Im filling the HDD every 3 days. So the MPG4 files are huge. Im using Luxriot as a VMS.



CJ
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, that's the one exactly. I don't understand h.264, because if you are using VMS and it's capturing the video via rtsp, isn't it then recording using the VMS sofware using it's own compression? Sure, when viewing the camera via it's web interface or if it records to SD it will use h.264, but now sure when it streams to VMS software unless the VMS software itself has h.264 compression.
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skane
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Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rtsp protocol can use unique paths for each available stream, so you can select the stream with the stream path name. Or (in the case of Luxriot) the VMS has a stream path selector for rtsp. Compression is camera side (for a Vivo - Luxriot setup anyway).
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