What's the best low light camera.

[Stretch88]

We are looking to upgrade our outdoor camera system and looking for the best fixed and PTZ low light cameras.

Range 100 to 200 feet.

Does anyone have an opinion on the EverFocus EZ-650 and EPTZ-3600.
http://everfocus.com/product.cfm?productid=1613
http://everfocus.com/product.cfm?productid=117

Also looking at the SD7313 Vivotek PTZ Camera 35X Zoom but it's really expensive and not sure how that compares to the less pricey EverFocus equipment.
http://www.cctvcamerapros.com/IP-PTZ-Camera-p/vivotek-sd7313.htm

We currently have cameras in the $300 to $500 dollar range but the image quality and resolution in low light at a distance is poor.

Any help would be appreciated.

[buellwinkle]

Not familiar with Everfocus, but consider one thing, a built in IR emmiter on a highest quality camera is good for 30-40'. I know they advertise much better than that, but they test at very slow shutter speeds which are not realistic. I set my cameras at a maximum of 1/30th of a second to avoid motion blur at night and that usually cuts the advertised IR emmiter distance in half. To cover a nice wide range of 100-200' with a decent shutter speed, figure the IR emmitter alone (not counting the camera) will probably cost $1,000-1,500. Having a 35x zoom is great during the day, but trying to reach a good distance at night is futile without a decent amount of light.

You can light the area up with bright white lights like street/parking lot lights and then get a camera that has very good night vision and most cameras in your price range use smaller sensors, cheaper lenses and that's the compromise as they work well enough in good light, but at night is when the rubber meets the road.

As for half way decent PTZ cameras being expensive, yup, they are. Expect to pay at least $1,000 for vga resolution, double for 1MP and quadruple for 2MP. The Vivotek is priced appropriately, but I feel you can do better with Axis for the same price range (see review of P5534-e series on my blog). Axis also makes lower end PTZ like the 215 ptz-e but it's not POE. Also check out Panasonic, good low light capability and competitive pricing like the i-Pro Smart HD WV-SW395 which is 720P like the Axis.
_________________
For network camera articles and reviews, visit my blog at http://ipcamnetwork.wordpress.com

[Stretch88]

Buellwinkle,

Thanks for the reply.

One of the questions I have was weather we need a camera with a IR emitter or do they make a low light camera that is sensitive enough to deal with low light environments.

Our lot is lit relatively well, and after a recent robbery we are adding more lighting. So the question becomes how much light do we need before a non-emitter camera is required.

Also, I hear about some cameras that sense motion and automatically pan and zoom to the motioned object. Do you know about these and what is your opinion of them?

[JohnnyC]

I have many different models of Axis and prefer crisp color video in low light than b/w. I also prefer mega pixel over VGA for clarity. In addition I like cameras that load easily on my iPad and andriod smartphone when I am away from the property so i can check in when I am home sick or just checking up. Since I record all acrtivity on a PC elsewheres on the property over a shared network between all my cameras, I don't need SD card capabilites that some cameras have built in.

My requirments and experiences favor the Axis M1114 (-e for outdoor model) for my needs. With low light such as a single 75 watt flood light or a simple porch light, the M1114 will produce great images in color. I think i got 5 of these running 24x7 on my property. On the flip side I have an Axis Q1755 which produces extremely nice images in normal daylight, but is total crap at night in low light in color.

I have several Axis P1346's which are about 3 times the price of the Axis M1114's and at night in low light I think the M1114 run just as good as the P1346's in color. The M1114 is really a day camera whereas the P1346 and Q1755 are day/night cameras. It take a good eye to see the difference but images within 50 feet seem to have the same clarity between the M1114 and P1346 unless you digitally zoom in.. Yeah, the P1346's have tons of bells and whistles as well as a higher resolution, but as i said both seem to be just as clear for a target area of 50 feet or less.

Just a note for comaprision, the P1346 can be set to run 3mp whereas the Q1755 has a max of 2 mp. Comparing the quality of images produced by both cameras set to the highest resolutions in daylight , the Q1755 seems to have a much better picture.

I hope this all makes sense and is of help as I am typing half asleep before drinking my morning coffee.

John
New Jersey

p.s. - One additional note: I run Live Cams HD on my iPad and configured it to see all my IP cmaeras at the highest possible resolution. Over 3G, the M1114's load very fast, usually within 1 to 2 seconds. The P1346's take at least 3 seconds. The Q1755 and my P5534-e takes about 5 seconds to load. Comparing the video between all cameras next to eachother on the iPad, the quality looks identical.

[buellwinkle]

Lighting is a doule edged sword, if the lighting is in front of the subject you win, if it's behind, you lose. For example, take a picture of someone with the sun behind them and they will be a dark silhouette Take that into consideration when planning your camera angles and lighting. One thing I had that was sort of clever was a porch light that took a 100W bulb but ran it at 20W normally and went to full power on motion detect. Maybe they have some lot lighting that can do something similar or have additional lighting that's motion activated. That shock of surprise when lights get brighter or additional lights come on throws criminals off in itself.

If you can use white light (many can't due to light polution issues with neighbors), then it's OK to use a day only camera like the Axis M1114-e and it has a two features that Johnny didn't tell you about. It has a manual zoom lens they call varifocal so you can set the lens at different focal lengths up to about a 3-4x zoom. Also it has an auto-iris lens that uses the iris to control light coming into the camera which helps make sensors last longer in bright direct sunlight.

Having multiple less expensive cameras rather than one expensive PTZ has the advantage of capturing multiple angles of a scene and backing each other up. Keep in mind that you don't have to capture a persons face at the time they committed a crime. Pro's setup what's called choke points, or areas where someone has to pass to get to the point where they committed a crime and put cameras there who's sole purpose is to capture them close up, for example an entrance gate, a driveway, a path. Then they use wide angle lenses that are fruitless for capturing detail but can see the crime happen and corrolate that to the other camera capturing the detail of the subject.

As for PTZ patrols and autotracking, it's an advertised feature of some high end PTZ cameras but I have personally not tried it. The theory is you define patrol points for the PTZ camera and it stops at each patrol point for a few seconds. If motion is detected during a patrol stop, it has logic that makes the camera zoom in and track the moving object. How good it is, I have no clue. Axis calls this feature Advanced Gatekeeper and don't know if Johnny is taking advantage of this or not.
_________________
For network camera articles and reviews, visit my blog at http://ipcamnetwork.wordpress.com

[Stretch88]

Buellwinkle,

Thanks for you comments, it all makes sense. We are thinking of doing exactly what you suggest. Placing more fixed cameras, then 1 or 2 strategically located PTZ camera's that we can use to scan around if necessary.

I was curious about the general term IP camera. Am I to understand that these cameras have built in cards so that you can access the camera directly via the internet without the need of a DVD or computer?

We use a DVD and can access all of our cameras via an IP address via our DVD. There is also an Iphone app that allows us to view each camera. There is a PTZ feature as well but have not tested that since we currently do not own any PTZ cameras.

I guess my question is, given our system, is the IP camera all that they make anymore and the way to go or do they make cameras that are not IP that are better suited for our application.

[JohnnyC]

[Stretch88]

Johnny/Buellwinkle

I've learned a lot over the last few days. It looks like our current system is not an IP system. It is a CCTV system and from what I am learning we may be using totally different cameras than what are used in an IP system.

This is the brain of our system. [url] http://www.everfocus.com/product.cfm?productid=179[/url]

It would be a major to revamp the entire system so I'm thinking what we need to do at this point is replace some of the fixed low end cameras with better low light cameras. I still want to get a couple of PTZ's and was ready to pull the trigger on the Everfocus EPTZ3600 http://www.everfocus.com/product.cfm?productid=117 until I saw the demo and compared it to the IV&C camera. Check out the difference in the demo of the two. Try zooming into a license plate.

http://www.ivcco.com/demos/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VznZXu6mlI&feature=player_embedded


In any case at this point I am trying to find the best low light PTZ that is compatible with our system.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[CjMcD]

That ivcco demo is pretty cool click the panorama and the ptz moves to that position..That Everfocus DVR is an economical unit.. I wouldnt expect too much from it. If your looking for a nice hybrid solution try Toshiba Surveillix, or Honeywell Fusion DVR/NVR these are PC based units that support analog and IP megapixel...Ive been upgrading alot of people with standard analog CCTV to hybrid units and introduce IP megapixel.. A Toshiba XVS Series with 1 TB and a 240 FPS H264 capture run you around 2400$..


CJ

[buellwinkle]

They still make analog cameras (what you currently have) but to go HD or beyond, you need an IP camera. An analog camera is a dumb camera, it just has a video signal that goes over coax that plugs into a DVR that has all the intelligence like a web server. An IP camera is like a computer with sensor & lens, it typically has Linux running on it that compresses video, post processes video for corrections just like a digital camera and can handle motion detection and such and typically has a webserver running on it so you can configure and view the camera. Some have on-camera storage so you can run the camera independant of any external recording device. Some like Mobotix have the entire DVR software built into the camera, no PC or DVR/NVR needed to view and record events.

The advantages to analog cameras is they are cheap, they are plug and play as it doesn't matter what brand they are, they all plug in and work the same as they are just a dumb camera. So many alarm companies and such still promote analog because it's easier for them and they can make more money. Imagine selling a 4 camera system installed for $10K when the cameras only cost $50-100, not too shabby. The downside is D1 resolution (about the same as VGA), analog camera quality, interferance/line noise issues that pop up.

The advantages to IP cameras is megapixel resolution or HD in consumer talk which is what people are used to now with cell phone cameras that can record HD video, $99 camcorders that record HD video, and HD TV's and not many want to watch anything in standard definition anymore. Other benefits of IP include being able to use much less expensive cat5 that allow powering and connecting the camera on one cable. The downside is they cost more and are more complex to setup.

Then within IP cameras, there's the D1 resolution vs. MP. Regardless of analog or IP, D1 resolution CCD sensors seem to work real well in low light. MP cameras that typically have CMOS have a reputation for being pretty bad in low light but as new cameras come out, this is changing.
_________________
For network camera articles and reviews, visit my blog at http://ipcamnetwork.wordpress.com

[Stretch88]

Hey Guys

Thanks for all your help. I'm going to be doing a lot of research this weekend to try and put a system together.

[Stretch88]

Buellwinkle or anyone else.

I've been doing some research on IP systems and I'm confused about a couple of things.

I talk to one installer and he made it sound like it was as simple as purchasing an IP camera and logging on to it via a PC.

I then checked out the Vicon site http://www.vicon-security.com/index.htm that he recommended and it started to get complicated.

From what I can gather, these high definition IP cameras can burn up a lot of disk space if recording multiple cameras. Currently we are operating 12 analog cameras but will most likely increase the number to 20. The following are some of the questions that I have:
1. Is it realistic to think that we can have 20 HD cameras running at high resolution all the time? Some people have indicated that we would need to lower the res on some cameras or use motion or time recording to lower the amount of disc space needed.
2. On the Vicon site, they offer NVR's. Is this the way to go or can we just purchase a powerful PC and buy software to view multiple cameras. They also start getting into decoders, the nucleus, and other components that the recommend for a system. http://www.vicon-security.com/products-software-nvrs-dvrs.htm Do you know of a good site or link that explains the standard architecture of a multi-camera system?
3. The guy that recommended Vicon also talked about licensing. What's that all about? Do I need to have user licenses for everyone that uses the system?
4.I was hoping that we could simply purchase a beefed up computer and load in some decent software that would allow several users to view and operate the system. Since we intend to install a few PTZ cameras the software would need to support them, preferably from remote computers and smartphones.
5.Any idea how much we should expect to spend on a decent system?
6. Like you pointed out above, our current system allows us to log using a browser to monitor all of our cameras from anywhere in the world. Essentially, we are logging into the EverFocus DVR via a browser via our office network. How would this work with an IP network system? Does it get cumbersome since each camera is basically it's own network or does the software organize everything for simple remote viewing? I can log into my system via Iphone which brings up a screen with a channel for each camera. Can only view one cam at a time but it offers control of PTZ, sound and snap.

Thanks

[JohnnyC]

My .02 cents based on the questions asked...
“From what I can gather, these high definition IP cameras can burn up a lot of disk space if recording multiple cameras” – Yes they can use a lot of disk space depending on the resolution among other factors for each camera especially if you are recording continuously instead of by triggered events, but that is the price paid for high resolution and quality images/video.
My comments based on your numbered questions:

1) I run 11 high resolution cameras. One camera records continuously 24x7 and the others record on triggered events. My cameras range from 1mp to 3 mp with compression set very low which means bigger sized files saved on the hard drive. My property is in a very busy areas with lots of activity. My PC has 11 tbs of HDD. I need to manage which cameras record to which hard drives and how long they remain as archived or I can run out of space and my monitoring/recording software will start auto deleting the oldest archives to allow current activity to be record.

2) I don’t know much about already prepared NVRs purchased through other vendors, since I build my PCs using ASUS motherboards and parts obtained such as hard drives, video cards, case, etc. I use a monitoring/recording software package that anyone can buy. You can demo many of these packages on your PC. Most will allow full or almost full functionality during a demeo period of usually 30 days or less. This site offers good information on standard and multi-camera architecture. Just post questions.

3) With many, software/recording packages that you purchase, you pay a price for a basic setup license which may allow a certain number of cameras that can be used. As you add more cameras you pay for the additional camera license upgrade. My basic license costs something like $400 (maybe less) and it allows (I think) 4 cameras. Each additional camera added will cost $75 and I receive an upgraded license. Categories of licenses may also allow advanced features that lower end licenses don’t allow. Obviously, more features and more cameras you pay for.

4) Basically, you can purchase a beefed up computer and install software to allow other to see and/or operate your cameras. If you are on cable or DSL, the audience on the other end may see a choppy video stream especially if you have very low bandwidth and they are accessing an HD camera in high resolution and/or if many are accessing your camera(s) at the same time. Basically, it is like trying to crap a brick out of a duck’s asssss. There are several good apps for monitoring and controlling IP cameras on android and iPad.

5) The cost of a decent system is very open ended. What I consider a decent system or what I need for my requirements will be much different than yours. This included make and model of cameras and the cost of the PC. Since I make my own PCs, I can build a work horse PC for about a grand, but something equal to it sold commercially will cost 4 grand if not more and will not be totally to my specs.

6) I don’t know much about EverFocus although I had one of their ancient systems 11 years ago that was totally CCTV with no provisions for the internet. You can log into the system via smartphone/iPad/tablet providing your system and/or monitoring software allows it. From My iPad I can log directly into my PC from anywheres using iTeleport. It is a remote desktop app and it totally FREE. I can view my console as if I was sitting in front of my PC although it is slightly slower but good. Addtionally, I can an app on my iPad and see ALL my cameras at the same time which I cool. Using the same app I can select any of the cameras to display it full screen and control it. The app logs DIRECTLY into the camera and NOT the monitoring PC which is cool in case something goes belly up with the PC.

Just some addition info based on my experience. Some folks think once a PC used for monitoring and recording is setup, you never need to mess with it. I find it not true. It seems like I am periodically updating the PC and have battled several issues that frustrated me for a period of time, but at the moment all is good.

John
New Jersey

[Stretch88]

Johnny,

How do you manage to build a beefed up system with 11TB for 1K?

We've been buying what are relatively beefed up systems. Here's a spec from one that we purchased a few years ago. Obviously the new specs are better but I was wondering how this stacks up to what you are building.


ITEM DESCRIPTION QTY UNIT PRICE
PRICE
=============== =================================== ===== ==========
==========
ID-INFO 193356 COBRAZ 1 0.00
0.00
MODEL1 C SERIES 1 0.00
0.00
KB-152-101 BLACK XTREME GEAR MULTIMEDIA/ INTERNE 1 0.00
0.00
MO-115-101 BLACK XTREME GEAR OPTICAL USB GAMING 1 0.00
0.00
CU-197-205 INTEL i7-950 3.06GHZ 8M LGA 1366 RETA 1 1875.00
1875.00
HD-403-108 1TB SATA II 3.0 GB 7200RPM HD 1 0.00
0.00
RM-317-501 2GB DDR3 / 1600 MHZ MEMORY 3 0.00
0.00
FA-104-116 CASE FAN 120 MMM 3 3.00
9.00
FA-WATER-103 ASETEK 240MM WATERCOOLER 1 0.00
0.00
FA-104-116 CASE FAN 120 MMM 2 0.00
0.00
CS-130-136 BLACK COOLERMASTER STORM SNIPER NO PO 1 0.00
0.00
CD-135-106 LITEON IHOS 104 4X BLU-RAY PLAYER 1 0.00
0.00
CD-141-101 BLACK SAMSUNG 22X DVDRW 1 0.00
0.00
CABLE-201-101 24" IDE ROUND CABLE WITH 3 HEADS 1 0.00
0.00
CABLE-PROWIRE PROFESSIONAL CABLE WIRING 1 19.00
19.00
MR-104-101 12-IN-ONE INTERNAL CARD READER 1 0.00
0.00
MISC NO SLI/CROSSFIRE 1 0.00
0.00
MB-340-106 GIGABYTE X58 GA-EX58-UD4P 3 WAY CROSS 1 0.00
0.00
PS-109-123 ULTRA CYBERPOWER 800W POWER SUPPLY 1 0.00
0.00
MISC ONBOARD 7.1 SOUND 1 0.00
0.00
VC-183-102 EVGA NVIDIA GTX 285 2GB 1 0.00
0.00
SW-160-133 WINDOWS VISTA ULTIMATE SP1 LICENSE 1 105.00
105.00

[JohnnyC]

Stretch88, your right..... I actually paid about $1,200 for all parts with the exception of four of the 2 tb drives which I threw into to PC at a later date and as needed. The monitor I already had, likewise with the CD drive and my Windows OS. Basically, I purchase a generic case (which includes a power supply), motherboard, processor, video card (unless I have one laying around) and memory. Slap it together and configure it. In my box of parts, I usually have several spare hard drives of 500 gb to 1 tb, but I now prefer 2 tb or larger which I purchase. Obviously, depending on the processor, and mother board you choose, the cost will vary. I chose the i7-2600k in my last build.

If you want to go hog-wild and spend a few more bucks, you can buy a killer video card for serious gaming, but I do NOT play video games and have absolutely no interest in video games, I just need the CPU horse power for my camera monitoring/recording software and disk space for archiving video.

I usually upgrade to a newer PC every 2 years as I expand my system and newer and more powerful processors become available at a reasonable cost.

John
new jersey

p.s. - The above is for my home use, not professional.