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Need some advice for residential poe two camera setup


 
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k9cj5
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Need some advice for residential poe two camera setup Reply with quote

Hello I'm new to this forum and the idea of having an IP security camera installed in the home. I just recently purchased a new home and when we had it built I had them run two cat 5e lines to the front and back doors. Ever since my fiance saw a guy trying to break in to our old house Ive always wanted to beef up security. Any advise you guys can give me would be much appreciated.

My goal is this. I have a dedicated sever running. I would like to have the IP cam have two way audio, and panning at least for the front door. I would like it to do motion detection, and upload pics offsite in case they steal the server. I also would like access to the cameras through an android and I touch so I can check on it. Ive been looking and searching this forum and this is what Ive came up with.

I got the TRENDnet TPE-S44 Switch already. And I was looking at these two cameras for the front door.

Panasonic BB-HCM531A or the BB-HCM511A. I'm guessing Ill need weather proofing, but I'm not sure. Its under the patio in the corner so it would be protected. What would you guys recommend? Thanks in advance.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is it about these two cameras that attracts you to them?
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Pete_
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If they aren't weatherproof then it's pretty likely you would need some sort of enclosure. Those two have nice features but are only 640x480 resolution. Using a 1-3 megapixel camera would allow you to have less cameras overall, and still have enough resolution to ID people in the cameras field of view.

Axis makes nice outdoor models, as well as Sony, or ACTi. Usually the manufacture you buy the cameras from has software that can look and detect motion, and record it to your local storage. Having images emailed to you could suffice as backup, or perhaps have them transferred to a web server via ftp.
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k9cj5
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I liked that that had two way audio and are pov? I think that's what its called. I can move the camera around. Ill check out Axis, Sony, and ACTi.
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buellwinkle
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the money being spent, it may pay to get cameras with built in illuminators and HD resolution. The very limited pan/tilt capability on the BB-HCM531A is offset by the having a wider angle lens and more resolution. The advantage is that it's recording a larger area at once without having to have the intervention of manually panning and tilting.

For example, I should have the review ready in the next few days on my blog, but the ACTi TCM-7811 has great low light capability, very wide angle lens, inside a vandal resistant dome and IR illuminators effective up to 40 meters. You can find it for $600-700. For about half the price. their TCM-1111 is nice bullet, 720P or 1.3MP, built in illuminators in what's called a bullet shape. Both have two way audio but you have to buy the microphone separately. The reason most commercial grade cameras don't come with mic's built in is because in the US and many state laws, it's illegal to record and to appease attorneys, they buy camera without mic's built in. I bought cameras once with built in mic's and had to show proof that the mic was disabled. Funny in that you can video tape anything in public view, just nor record audio.

If you can get past the audio thing, the Axis M1114E is a great camera, effective in low light but no built in illuminators. There's also some other brands that make HD surveillance cameras in you price range that are high quality cameras. Panasonic does too, but not the one you are looking at. JohnnyC on the forum loved his Panasonic cameras like you mention, until he replaced every single one of them with Axis. Once you work with HD resolution and a quality camera, it's hard to go back.
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tome
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Joined: 31 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there some kind of general rule in terms of how much resolution is enough? Obviously more is better if the noise does not overwhelm, etc, but I am curious if you need less resolution if your camera is above a door in a residential setting and more if the camera is higher up on a building in a commercial setting... Or does that not have anything to do with it. The 7811 seems like a good choice in my commercial application, but I an wondering if it will be too low resolution (at 1M pix) and if I should be looking for something like 4M pix. What are the important factors related to resolution?
Thanks,
Tom
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on what you are trying to accomplish. If you goal is to ID someone's face, then that person's head has to be at least 80 pixels tall. You can do that with VGA or 5MP, depends on how close to the camera they get, what your focal length is. You don't always have to cover every square inch. There's the concept of a choke point, an area a person would have to pass through to commit a crime. In the old days, when people used analog cameras, they may setup a camera with a wide angle lens to cover a large area and then one camera pointed at the choke point to ID the person.

With surveillance cameras now available with 29MP, it makes life easier, you don't have to think in those terms, you just point in the general area with a wide enough lens and you capture what you need. But I find that in a residential situation, small lots size where you want to maybe secure a 20' perimeter, having 1.3MP is adequate, but trying to cover a large outdoor area, commercial parking lot, city square, park, the more the better. There is a trade off to having too much resolution, for example, viewing it remotely is a pain, storing video becomes more expensive, the PC needed to process very high resolution video is more expensive.

Is 4MP better than 1.3MP. depends on your needs. Like for like cameras, yes, 4MP is 3x better, but the 7811 is a CCD sensor with good low light capability, the 5211E would require good illuminators to be effective. So if you factor in the cost of illuminators, the cost shoots up.
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JohnnyC
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Joined: 20 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to buellwinkle's advice, it also depends on your bandwidth and how you plan to view or monitor the video. For example, a 4 mp camera will generally provide great clear and criisp video, but if you plan to monitor the video at a remote location and your camera is connected to the internet over a standard cable connection, viewing the camera at a remote location will produce a very, very very choppy video at full resolution.

Also, if you plan to record continuously at full hd resolution and frame rate using a computer on the camera's lan at full resolution and plan to save several days in archive, plan to install huge hard drives on your PC. I can easily use up a tb of hd space in a day.

John
New jersey
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tome
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great info, many thanks to both of you!
Tom
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buellwinkle
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Choppy video is an understatement. When I was viewing a 3MP camera at a location with the fastest possible DSL and best compression, I was able to see one frame every 3-4 seconds, ouch. Sure, make that a cable or u-verse or something faster and may you can triple that speed, still not pretty and that's just one camera. Now imaging recording 10 seconds of video, 30fps and it takes 3 seconds per frame to get it to your remote PC, that can take a long time to download at 90 seconds per second of video, or 900 seconds for 10 seconds of recorded video. I cut my frame rates down to 10-12fps to aid in this.

What you can do in some cameras is they have multiple streams, so you can view a primary stream remotely at VGA resolution and record a secondary stream at full resolution. Make sure the camera you select has this if it's important. Doesn't help with recorded video but imagine having to look at a few recorded events to find the one you want, ouch.
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tome
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buellwinkle wrote:
Choppy video is an understatement. When I was viewing a 3MP camera at a location with the fastest possible DSL and best compression, I was able to see one frame every 3-4 seconds, ouch. Sure, make that a cable or u-verse or something faster and may you can triple that speed, still not pretty and that's just one camera. Now imaging recording 10 seconds of video, 30fps and it takes 3 seconds per frame to get it to your remote PC, that can take a long time to download at 90 seconds per second of video, or 900 seconds for 10 seconds of recorded video. I cut my frame rates down to 10-12fps to aid in this.

What you can do in some cameras is they have multiple streams, so you can view a primary stream remotely at VGA resolution and record a secondary stream at full resolution. Make sure the camera you select has this if it's important. Doesn't help with recorded video but imagine having to look at a few recorded events to find the one you want, ouch.


This is the thing that Mobotix touts with it's MxPeg video format, that you have hi res and lower frame rate (unlike mpeg4 or h264)... Anyone know how much of a difference their protocol makes in the real world?

Tom
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buellwinkle
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My example was with a Mobotix M12.
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k9cj5
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Joined: 09 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry for the slow response. I looked at the TCM-1111 and it looks like it would be a good choice for what I need. The reason I was thinking to buy a camera with two way audio was I would be able to have a conversation with someone at the front door without needing to open it. At least if I got the camera I would have the option of doing that later. Whats the viewing area of the TCM-1111 like? is it pretty wide? And since my only option to power the camera is POE will I still be able to use it? Thanks again.
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k9cj5
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and if you bought the TCM-1111 where would you buy it from? It doesn't look like many people have it in stock.
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buellwinkle
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its fairly new, so just check the common places, Amazon, PCRush, B&H PhotoVideo are ones that I purchased from without regrets.

The camera is PoE. It has a fixed lens at 4.2mm which is a common size. The bigger brother the TCM-1231 has a 3.3-12mm varifocal but you'll be OK with 4.2mm lens, good compromise.

No audio with this camera. One of the things cut in the interest of producing a lower cost version of the TCM-1231.
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