Axis m10 series not as good as older models?

[ddc]

I was set to purchase a few Axis m1054 cameras as they seem like quality, full feature cameras for a decent price. I've seen many live demos of the m10 series cameras and am very disappointed with low-light performance. I would have expected much better, and believe my expectations are reasonable when I compare with older generation Axis cameras at the same price point such as the 207MW. I've seen the same on m1011, m1031 and assume m1054 wouldn't be any different do to likely same lens/sensor design.

Why would these newer cameras compare so poorly to older models?

I know these cameras have a video db gain adjustment. Could it be that by default it's set much higher on these new cameras and users aren't aware or just don't bother to adjust? I would attach picture examples to this post if I knew how.

I suppose I could spring for the m1114 model which seems to be better - although 207 STILL appears to have lower noise levels! Any comments welcome!....ddc

[ddc]

Here are some example pics between m1011 and 207MW under low light conditions.

Camera 1 Gallery

http://picasaweb.google.com/ddc.sod/Camera1?authkey=Gv1sRgCJOEhfnBzPf3Xw#

[buellwinkle]

I agree, i have been very disapointed with low light performance with the M10. I use my M1031 as a motion detector alert since it has PIR motion detect (like your M1054), but I don't rely on it for video, I use my ACTi cube indoors for that. This is what I don't like about Axis, you can have a dozen different camera models that are 1MP or HD, yet they must use totally different sensors because they all are different so it's hit and miss.

Check out the M11 series, the M1114, it has very good low light capability. Not sure the price difference, i think $100 more, but consider that you get an auto-iris lens, better frame rate and a vari-focal lens, it's not too bad. You do lose the PIR motion detect of the M1054 though.

If you want to stay in the same price range or lower than the M1054 and want PIR motion detect, check out the ACTi cubes.
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[ddc]

Thank you very much for your input buellwinkle. It's nice to here from an actual owner that can verify what I've been seeing from the limited demos available. I'm now almost certainly gong to purchase the m1114. However I'm looking for 3 or 4 cameras total and may mix things up just for fun - also different requirements. The ACTi lineup looks interesting for sure. From what I've read, overall fairly good comments but ...

1. Customer support not as good as Axis - if you have problems good luck!
2. Less IP camera software support
3. Often have firmware issues
4. Difficulty finding suppliers
5. Noticed that full spec resolution often only 8 frames per second, or 10 fps for HD vs full 30 for Axis.

Perhaps all those issues are exaggerated. The price for features are so tempting, I just may give the popular acm1231 a try too.

Thanks again

[40th Floor]

Sure, I can get a 207mw to "look" fine at twilight, but there's a catch: blurred motion and 15 minutes later it's black as the ace of spades. Show a pic with movement at the 20:15 time you have there, and show ANY picture (207mw) at 21:00 and let's see what you got. My bet is you cherry picked your pics by setting image to favor quality, and gain to 0 dB. That's fine, at twilight, if you don't want to see movement (because it's a blur and it's also easy to miss entirely due to the slow capture), and happen to only care that everything happens at or before twilight.

So, let's see the same scene at 2100, and let's see the same scene with movement (at 20:15 since no way you can see anything at 2100). Are you game?

As for the m10 line, you can't use mpeg4 with the built-in active-x because the built-in activex is poorly done. The camera itself can do mpeg4 just fine. I suppose you are doing these with motion jpeg, so that's moot, but it's a point others with the m10 should know. You can check out my ck2 demo (see sig) for the proper showing of the m10 mpeg4 (or h264). And hey, the m10 is an indoor camera, and if you have the 1031, it's got that LED lamp which will do some good in total darkness; the PIR can trigger the lamp.

I like the 207 line, but unfortunately, the current firmware (4.44.x) is really screwed up.

http://custforum.axis.com/viewtopic.php?t=1481


The m10 is not very good, but few network cameras are, at least so far. Companies don't want to mess with the higher-priced lines by doing what can easily be done in the lower-cost lines.

I don't consider acti to be any different (in quality).
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40th Floor - Software @ http://40th.com/
CastleKeeper - IP camera surveillance/recorder
http://castlekeeper.40th.com/ck2plus_demo.zip

[buellwinkle]

I have several brands of cameras and always searching for the idea camera, a never ending process. I don't want you to think that I like one brand over another but I do like one camera over another and the M10 has it's place, but it is the very bottom of the Axis line. But here's my take on Axis vs. ACTi. I have not had any physical issues with either, I have 2 Axis cams & 4 ACTi cams so I can tell only about my personal experience -

1. Customer support not as good as Axis - if you have problems good luck!
I have taxed both Axis and ACTi support and feel they both respond in about the same time, both have connected to my camera to fine tune it for me, both have been very helpful & polite. Both their websites have a good support portals with many previously asked questions and tips on how to do certain things. I don't see any difference in the level of support at all.

2. Less IP camera software support
ACTi is a large company and a popular brand, it's been included in all the software I've evaluated. ACTi also provides their NVR software for free, Axis charges way too much for their software and I wasn't that impressed with it.

3. Often have firmware issues
I can tell you that I've had such severe firmware issues with my Axis M10 that I was ready to return it. Then new firmware would not even load, so support had to remotely connect to my camera to apply the firmware updates. ACTi had some issues, but I applied the latest firmware and it fixed them. Seems like ACTi puts out more firmware updates than Axis, that doesn't mean they have more problems, just put out releases more often.

4. Difficulty finding suppliers
The problem I have with Axis is they undercut their distributors and provide very deep discounts to large projects using "project pricing". All major distributors sell ACTi and one I use stopped selling Axis due to being outbid by Axis directly too many times.


5. Noticed that full spec resolution often only 8 frames per second, or 10 fps for HD vs full 30 for Axis.
They make various cameras that look similar but have different specs. Their higher end line with better frame rates, better compression are their TCM. So they may have a ACM-1231 and a TCM-1231 and you'll see the specs and it's up to you if you want to pay more for those features. Frankly, high frame rates are overrated for home/small business security. One area where specs like is fps, because at night, the shutter speeds increase making it impossible to reach the rated fps.
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[ddc]

Thanks to 40th Floor and buellwinkle for taking the time to make such detailed replies. I'll take all your comments into consideration. For my first camera, I intend on getting a basic one for the front door just to take a picture record of everyone who come to the front door. I've narrowed it down to the Panasonic BL-C101A or possible the Vivotek IP7133. The Vivotek specs better low light performance than the Panasonic, but it has a min focus distance of 70cm which may be a problem for the front door.....there is always something! Unfortunately, I can't find any specs on the minimum focus distance of the m10 series cameras...would you happen to know what it might be buellwinkle?

Thanks again,
Ddc