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I'd pay for intelligent motion detection over 3MP resolution


 
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: I'd pay for intelligent motion detection over 3MP resolution Reply with quote

The quality of it's motion detection intelligence doesn't seem to be quantifiable, so it seems to be ignored by manufactures as nobody seems to advertise they have the most intelligent motion detection software. Detection outdoors can easily be a joke, with shadows and plant movements getting constant recording while our brains so easily filter this out. And then I've read many people are disappointed that motion detection stops recording, just at the right moment. It seems to me recording should continue until the motion stops. Maybe I just need to sneak into that security conf that's coming to NY around October.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ISC East at Javitz Center, good show to go to. Motion detection can be a pain outdoors, good enough though for recording, but certainly would not want to get an email or text or each false alert.

Get a camera with alarm I/O and attach an outdoor PIR motion detector, typically used for alarm systems. It looks at heat signatures as it moves from beam to beam, so lights, shadows, trees won't affect it. They cost about $100 for a decent one. They have battery operated ones or you can run 12V to them. You can also put in filters to mitigate it capturing smaller low to the ground creatures like squirrels, bunnies, cats and such.

If that's too much fuss, the Mobotix D15 dome has a PIR motion detector built in that I believe is good for 30' from my experience, not as good as the better external PIR motion detectors.
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:20 pm    Post subject: Even a $400 PIR says it's bothered by tree and grass movemen Reply with quote

I just started looking into the use of PIR and came across a OPTEX Redwall SIP-404 unit. I've read the 12 page installation manual.
They seem really SUPER cool and cost $385 and up but it still had a section 10-2 in the manual - "If Tree Branches or Grass are Detected when they move within the detection area". Um, for $400 I was hoping for perfection in motion detection. No extra recording footage, or not much.
I was kind of drawn to this expensive unit because it's detection range is 130 feet, I was looking to track the actions of nasty neighbors who are likely to misbehave right at the property lines. It didn't seem like I could run wires 120 feet to put a cheaper PIR near the property line. Versus this SIP-404 which would be mounted on my house, and close to a camera also up high on the house.
The cheaper units, with shorter ranges, don't have good water penetration resistance either. Even this $400 unit only has an ip rating of 65 with just 55 for the chassis. So yea - it would be great if body heat can trigger my motion detection. My cameras Trendnet TV-322P have a nice 8 pin GIOPand even a 2 pin 24V AC connector - so it might be external PIR capable.
Any BTDT would be helpful - and is it agreed that running maybe 4 wires 100 or more feet over or under my lawn to a PIR closer to the possible action would be difficult? One area to be monitored is just lawn - so putting a PIR on a stick would look silly. The other area - maybe I could hide the PIR up in a tree. Thanks
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outdoor PIR motion detectors are not cheap, but should work. Optex makes a good battery operated one for about $100 and you don't have to change the battery often, maybe once a year and then you don't need a power supply and extra wiring, just 2 wires to the alarm input in the camera. Bosch makes one that requires a 12V power supply. They tend to be rated in the 40-50' range and equal width. Rated and reality may be two different things, so not sure that you'll get that exact range.

Trees, shadows won't set them off, but dogs, cats, squirrels may but most let you block the lower areas near the ground to avoid this. Birds are the worst as they can literally fly up to your camera or motion detector and perch on it.

There's analytics software that's able to distinguish between moving objects and people, it's not expensive but can be a major CPU hog. Used to be called VitaminD but has a new owner, Sighthound - http://www.sighthound.com/
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paarlberg
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Joined: 23 Aug 2011
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see they added a web and mobile app to the offering.

I'm still happy with my blueiris, got it fairly well tweaked and not having any performance issues or false alarms other than on very windy days..
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just depends on how accurate you want to get. Since I don't link my outdoor cameras to notifications, having false alerts wastes disk, but I can live with that. But if you are relying on this to get alerts, having even one false alert a day will make it useless because you'll just get complaisant. I have PIR motion detectors indoors, someone comes in and I get my alerts within a few seconds, but I've only had one false alert in 3 years.
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paarlberg
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Joined: 23 Aug 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I set up 2 profiles on BI. A day and night. During the day there is more activity at the house (work from home) so it just records for 10seconds on each movement. At night, I get alerts for movement outside. Since I am still building, (moving into the new house in the next 2 weeks) I may have to make some adjustments. With the new app, it is easy to pause and start the process. Once in the house, I will probably not record during the day except on 1 side of the house.

Ken added a new feature to BI (or I hadn't seen it before) where you can limit the FPS for viewing to reduce CPU load, it will still record at full frames from the camera. I have tested it at 30fps from the cameras and 5fps on the view, it helps a lot to reduce the CPU load. 15fps to 5fps it dropped the CPU load about 1-1.5% per camera.

There is a cat that likes to frequent and it does get picked up, but that is not that often to be a pain.

I know there are better solutions, but for a residential system, this works well for the cost. You just have to learn how to tweak it.
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:37 pm    Post subject: The $100 guy would be good. Reply with quote

Right now I'll still looking for proof in concept - so best to try it out with the cheap guy. If it doesn't work at all, I'm only out $100.

So how to hook it up, and will it even work? I sent this question to Trendnet. "I'd like to hook up a PIR motion detector. The GPIO on the TV-IP322P has 8 pins , I don't see much documentation on the pins. GND, OUT, 12, 11, GND - ah 11 and 12 must be for trigger 1 and trigger 2 as per page 31 of the user guide (Event Configuration >> GPIO Trigger) . So I'm guessing the Passive Infra Red detector would be hooked up to 11 and GND?"

I also have a Axis P3364-VE which i never hooked up(still in box) , but that has Digital input, pin 3 and 1 is ground.

I dont think my Acti E32 has any connections for the PIR.

Optex has wireless PIRS - perhaps no long wires, just a battery and a short wire connection on the receiver and the camera GPIO cable.

Wow - lots to learn. And maybe my Synology surveillence station won't integrate with the alerts. So I can setup PIR cameras to just record to NAS.

Time is on my side. No need to buy anything today.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 2504

PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try the Bosch OD850 or Optex VX402, not battery operated, but only $100ish. So you there's 4 wires, 2 go to 12V power (not included) that power the gizmo. 2 go to your alarm inputs on the camera.

ACTi mentioned they will have alarm I-O in many of their cameras soon for no additional charge, maybe even yours but only if you buy a new one. The P33 for sure has alarm inputs. What I like about the older ACTi cameras that have alarm inputs is they also provide 12V out from the camera for this purpose. Axis does not, they provide 3.3v but that's not going to help you. Trendnet is not a brand I've used, so don't know. 12v is a pain, you'll need a 12v power supply and plug that in somewhere and run a pair of wires to the detector.

If you just want to experiment, you can get an indoor Bosch PIR motion detector for $25 just to see how it goes together although not sure you want to use it outdoors.
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:03 pm    Post subject: I figured all PIRs - just signal the even by closing a circu Reply with quote

Well I figured all a PIR can do is close a circuit on my GPIO. Trendnet said they are not going to answer my question so I went with my guess that pin labeled 11 must be trigger #1 in. So I just put a wire in GRD and a wire in 11 and touched them together simulating a $400 PIR closing a circuit to say - here is some movement.

A picture tells a 1000 words. the 8 pin GPIO (i was trying 12 as trigger #2)

http://s1314.photobucket.com/user/84quattro/media/IMG_0033-GPIO-TV-IP322p_zps54bfc82b.jpg.html?filters[user]=135934303&filters[recent]=1&sort=1&o=1

But no, it didn't trigger my GPIO event. Nothing written to the NAS. 3 Hours down the drain.

I might try a similiar thing using my Axis 3364. Good thing I'm retired.

BTW the N.C. and N.O on PIRs must mean normally closed, or normally open?

BTW - on the GPIO the one labelled 12v did actually put out almost 12 volts.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the Axis camera, it will the display the state. Go to System Options, Ports & Devices, I/O Ports and it will tell you if the circuit is open or closed. We use this to do our port testing.
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: I was trying this on my Axis Reply with quote

Hello Buellwinkle. This worked on my Axis - but I didn't turn having a trigger into recording video. In Events I created an Action Rule on the digital input port. The problem is I said " record video" to" network share", but I couldn't figure out where to define a network share on any of the setup menus for my P3364. So got to see the ports go active (after connecting ports 1 and 3) - but I have no idea where video was recorded to.

So if I can figure this out, at least I could consider an external PIR for my Axis (which is still new in box - haha) . PIR is no good if camera is not mounted somewhere Smile. The 3 trendnet cameras I can get them record to a network storage, but grounding the trigger input pin did nothing to create a trigger on 3 of the cameras I tried it on. So far trendnet is not providing any documentation on the GPIO ports. Maybe they require some voltage - or maybe they are just decorations.
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buellwinkle
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Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the latter, decorations. To record to a network share (SMB/CIFS) with Axis, you need to install Axis Camera Companion (free), runs on Windows, but installs itself in the camera as an app. You setup recording stuff from the Windows problem but once setup, you don't need to have the PC on for it to record, unless of course the network share is on your computer but I use NAS storage for this .
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SteveM
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Joined: 25 Oct 2012
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject: I got the axis and trendnet recording on input trigger Reply with quote

I got the axis camera companion running along with setting up the network storage for Axis recording. Grounding GPIO pin 3 fired the trigger and it would record. For the Trendnet I got some support info back about the pins, I added a 3.6v battery, not just grounding but juicing the circuit. That seemed to work, i.e. it would record to NAS when I did that. So I think I can try some external PIRs. Thanks.
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